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Sex, Lies and Audiotape transcribed and presented by Roxy Wildside

Shelley Clink, radio interviewer for Q107 interviews
Paddy Aldridge and Roxy Wildside of Take A Walk On The Wildside

Coming out of the closet for a transvestite is a major psychological event. What I want the reader to do is to imagine what it is like to be in my shoes (size 12 D 4” high heel pumps) and have no more closets to hide in. As Roxy, I am called upon to be the TV model for our business, TAKE A WALK OF THE WILDSIDE. I do newspaper interviews, television spots, pose for the mail order catalog, get featured in our brochures and on the Internet, explain my transvestism at sexuality conferences and on documentary films, prepare book reviews for magazine publication, increase my bibliography so that one day I can write my own authoritative books on crossdressing and someday pursue my Ph.D. and I do radio phone-in talk shows. It is this last activity, the phone-in radio talk show, that I want to share with you.

Prior to this radio show, three hookers were shot dead on the city streets. Two of the victims were transvestite male hookers. The other victim was a female prostitute. All three were shot on the same night with the same gun. At the time when this radio interview was conducted, the alleged killer had not yet been apprehended.

Imagine going on the radio with an aggressive radio hostess, identifying myself as a transvestite, being grilled by this hostess who must be controversial to get ratings and then fielding live caller’s questions. Prior to the show, the hostess, Shelly Stern, cautioned me that her listening audience tended to be very straight, mainstream, somewhat conservative if not narrow minded. She said that the questioning could get very personal and very rough. “Can you take it?” she asked. Put yourself into all of this media hype on the murders and the show biz razzle-dazzle and see if you could sound upbeat, confident about yourself, informed and lucid throughout this experience. Well all of this happened to me and it went something like this:

Shelly: “This is CFFF 1111 with you now 8:00 to 10:00 p.m. right here on News Talk radio CFFF 1111. We’re reading in the media about prostitutes and people on the street being killed because man dresses as woman or man dresses as drag queen. Then we are seeing these words in main stream media for the first time in a long time ‘transsexual,’ ‘transvestite,’ ‘drag queen.’ What does it all mean? Tonight we can figure this all out. As we continue for the first hour I’m going to be asking you simply this: ‘Is society ready to accept men that dress as women?’ Are we ready to accept this or do you believe after what you know from your years of experience reading the press that men that dress as women are really kind of asking for it? And the reason I say that is listening to a lot of the conversation around the fact that several hookers have been killed and we all know what we are talking about here. It’s dangerous! Why did they choose that life style? If a man goes on the street and pretends to be something he’s not and he is a hooker and the man who wants to have sex with him finds out he’s really not a ‘she,’ that could make somebody very angry. In fact looking at some information for the Clarke Institute, they actually talk about this. That this is a phenomenon that has to be talked about. If you are going through a sex change operation, if you are a man dressed up as a woman, if you are into the hooking industry, it is a problem. Are you misrepresenting yourself ? Are you giving the guy who wants to have sex with you a reason to beat you up? In short, if a man dresses as a woman, is he simply asking for it, whatever ‘it’ is? Or are we ready to accept now, men that dress as women? That is the question. Please think about that as we go along here. The number of course 555-1111. Star Talk on the cell phone, Star- 8888. Long distance out of town 1-800-555-CFFF.

When there is all sorts of talk around, can we get somebody in to talk about what people are really feeling on the streets? You know, are hookers still out there plying their trade? Is it so scary that nobody is on the street these days? Very difficult. Nobody wanted to talk. Why would you if you were the target of a serial killer? In any event, Tom, a.k.a. Roxy, is in studio tonight. Thank you for coming.”

Roxy: “I’m glad to be here.”

Shelly: “It’s good to talk to you. A little closer to the mic would be OK? OK that’s the ticket right there.”

Roxy: “I’m happy to be here tonight because there’s a lot of confusion among the terms.”

Shelly: “We are confused.”

Roxy: “There’s somebody who calls himself a ‘transsexual,’ and then there’s a ‘transvestite,’ and then there’s somebody who calls himself a ‘crossdresser’.”

Shelly: “Right. Now, how would you refer to yourself? You are sitting in front of me. You are Tom. Biologically you are a male.”

Roxy: “I’m biologically a male and I believe that no surgery can do anything about that. So I can never be transsexual. A transsexual often has the attitude that somewhere along the line God made a mistake. They were born the wrong sex.”

Shelly: “Right. God screwed up. I came on to this earth. I’m male. I don’t want to be a man. I really want to be a female and I will take hormones and I will do whatever I have to do to make that change happen.”

Roxy: “What bothers me about that is the element of blaspheming.”

Shelly: “What do you mean?”

Roxy: “Well it’s just like saying that God is wrong. And yet I’m one of God’s creatures. My particular situation is that I am a transvestite because I wear women’s clothes.”

Shelly: “And may I say that you look lovely tonight. (We both laugh). I saw you downstairs, like, my God! See this is a problem I have with men who dress as women. You always look better than me. It doesn’t matter. Good hair days, bad hair days, three hours in the bathroom, it dosen’t matter! Also, when I saw you downstairs --- and believe me there are issues you should know about, should you walk or take a cab because of the feelings of violence on the street --- when I looked at you for the first time, I didn’t know. I honestly didn’t know. I’m pretty perceptive, I think. I didn’t know that you were a man. And I think this is the problem a lot of people have. My God I see this georgeous blonde, legs to die for --- you know the look --- walking on the street. I turn around and my best buddy says: ‘Aaah, she’s a he!’ And the fingers go down the throat! The Crying Game! It’s all over! You don’t trust your manhood. You can’t believe that you made this mistake and this whole ego thing.”

Roxy: “Well my status, condition if you like, as a crossdresser or a transvestitie, is that I really don’t want to stand out ( in a crowd) such as a drag queen would stand out. When I call myself a transvestite I share the crossdressing phenomenon with men who are gay.”

Shelly: “Yes, but you yourself, you are not gay.”

Roxy: “But I want it known because I know so many very wonderful people in the gay community, that I don’t want to call myself a crossdresser because heterosexual males like to call themselves crossdressers. So it kind of qualifies them as not being gay. (I was trying to explain that equating ‘crossdresser’ to heterosexual men and ‘transvestite’ to gay men is not in my view a productive differentiation in terminology.)”

Shelly: “Well this is where I get confused though.”

Roxy: “See, to say that I’m not gay, well so what. I’m not gay. I’m a heterosexual male but my gender is female.”

Shelly: “Right. So you are a man. You were born a man. You do not necessarily like being a man though.”

Roxy: “That’s when gender dysphoria comes into it and you can get a lot of information out of the Clarke Institute about such people. I just don’t like my gender as masculine.”

Shelly: “So do you feel that God Screwed up?”

Roxy: “I’m working with what God gave me because I don’t want to get into that territory (of blaspheming). That’s the challenge of my life form.”

Shelly: “But you do feel that you are like a female trapped in a male body?”

Roxy: “Yes I could say that and its a nice general term and its easier to grasp that I am like a female trapped in a man’s body.”

Shelly: “OK ‘cause I know that many people listening are going: ‘my God I can’t take it! It’s like a freak show! Why don’t these people make a decision? You know it’s not that hard. Either you are a man or a woman.’ What’s the big problem here?”

Roxy: “Gender can be learned like a language. The gender I’ve preferred all my life is feminine. I grew up around my mother’s sisters and my grandmother. I spent a lot of time separated from my father just because I was on vacation a lot of time during the summers with my grandmother. She was a seamstress. And all my mother’s sisters lived with or near my grandmother and they were beautiful women. They were all fascinated with movies and Hollywood and I was too.....”
Shelly: “.....the glamour, and they must have had the costumes ‘cause you grew up with a seamstsress and all the girls around you.”

Roxy: “And I, you know, before I could ride a bike, I could thread my grandmother’s sewing machine because she couldn’t see very well up close. I could wind bobbins and thread her Singer sewing machine, a 1948 Singer straight stitch which I still have in perfect working order.”

Shelly: “The antiques and all that. So you grew up surrounded by a lot of woman.”

Roxy: “That’s right.”

Shelly: “Were there any guys, men around when you were growing up?”

Roxy: “No.” (I had wanted to clarify here that my father was somewhat of an absentee father in that he was working seven days a week and that I really saw very little of him.)

Shelly: “OK the reason I ask is ‘cause we do not know all the answers. I mean please, we do not know. But some theories state you grew up around a lot of women. That’s where you felt most comfortable. So you more than a lot of other guys would feel more comfortable: a) having feelings and b) expressing your feminine side.”

Roxy: “All pre-puberty, all this, ah, you know, did I sleep with my aunt in my nightie?”

Shelly: “(laughing) Gee do we have to get into that? It’s (the show) is only 120 minutes long.”

Roxy: “Did they paint my toenails? The first time I learned about peer group pressure was when I went to kindergarten and I had my toenails painted and my nails painted.”

Shelly: “You were a little boy but you were in kindergarten with toenails and your fingernails painted.”

Roxy: “That’s right. Then I realized that, oh oh, this isn’t accceptable. There is something wrong with this. I can’t be this way.”

Shelly: “Do you blame your family, I mean for the way you were raised with all this female influence for maybe wanting, for your want to be more female?”

Roxy: “My mother’s people all had female children and on my father’s side they were all male children. So when my older brother was a male child my parents wanted their next child to be a girl. They always wanted a girl and they just openly said that.”

Shelly: “So do you think that maybe you felt some pressure not just at kindergarten but, I mean this is pretty common.
Why did I have a boy? Why didn’t I have a girl?”

Roxy: “(agreeing) This was openly discussed in the family. They wanted me to be a girl.”

Shelly: “So in terms of learning because I think that many people feel this. Look, if you learned not to like yourself, if you learned not to like yourself as a guy, why can’t you unlearn it? Do you see what I mean? If you learned to crossdress, if you learned to feel better with a wig on and a dress, why can’t you unlearn it and just go back to being a so called ‘normal’ guy?”

Roxy: “It’s not possible.”

Shelly: “Why not?”

Roxy: “Because the ingredients are so ingrained. Like I say, gender is a learned thing, but I never liked men’s sports. I never wanted to hang around a bunch of sweaty men in team sports. I just wanted to watch movies. I always wanted to talk to the girls and be with the girls. And then when I grew up I found out that a man had to be competitive. He had to be mean, vicious, sadistic. I mean cruel, heartless. Ice water had to flow through his veins under extreme pressures. He had to wear a shirt and tie. I always resented that. It’s just like being in a box. So I just learned to dislike what I call the corporate image of a male.”

Shelly: “Now let me just say at this point.....”

Roxy: “But I can function that way. But when I do I am extremely unhappy.”

Shelly: “You are a biological male. You are 49 years old. When you dress as a woman, though, you refer to yourself as Roxy. You are a member of the Canadian Crossdressers Club and you work at a store called Take A Walk On The Wildside.”

Roxy: “Yes.”

Shelly: “And that store is about what before we go to break?”

Roxy: “We dress men properly as women whether they are just gender curious or they are serious about it. We co-ordinate their wardrobes. We make sure their makeup is right. We make them look as beautiful as they possibly can.”

Shelly: “What we’re gonna do is take a short break. When we come back though feel free to ask your questions at 555-1111. Star Talk on the cell phone, Star 8888. Long distance out of town 1-800-555-CFFF. Is it right? Is it a perverted lifestyle, men dressing as women? A lot of people find this really distasteful. You know that better than anyone. You had to take a cab up here or get a ride and not walk on the street ‘cause you know the public feeling about this. We are asking you, is it right? Is it moral? Is society ready to accept men who dress as women even in light of past events of hookers on the street being killed? Are we ready to acceptmen who dress as women? Or transvestities, transsexuals are they asking for a life of rejection.? Are they asking for a life of discrimination? Are they doing it to themselves?


(The lead-in music is Miss Chatelaine by K.D. Lang.) “I’m Shelly Stern. Nice choice of music, thank you David. This is Sex, Lies and Audiotape on CFFF 1111. Simply asking you tonight, I know there is a lot of feeling about it’s immoral, it’s not natural, you know, everybody has problems in life, but why do men have to go around dressing as women? And then look what happens on the street. Hookers get killed because they are immitating. They’re not being themselves, transsexuals, transvestites. So we are asking you tonight and Roxy has agreed to come in. And Roxy is a man who does dress in female clothing but is willing to take on your questions about this. Do you feel this is an immoral lifestyle, not natural? I mean it’s ridiculous. Why are we even talking about it? On the other hand, are we now ready to open up the boundaries a little bit more and say hey, you know what? You are a man. You are dressing as a woman. Maybe it’s sexy. Maybe it’s offensive, but whatever the Hell it is, I think I can accept it. I think I am OK with that. How do you feel about it? Tom is a guy. When he dresses up in women’s clothing he becomes Roxy. Now Roxy, you said before the show you don’t really like being a male. You like yourself better when you’re female because of those female tendencies. To be a little bit more nurturing and not so competitive. But it is also true that you are not going so far as to change your sex?”

Roxy: “Absolutely. A man has one uniform. A woman has many. If a man who has to be masculine all the time wants to take a psychological vacation, he can crossdress. In that mode he can be his secretary, he can be a hooker, he can even be the girl next door.”

Shelly: “And aren’t those some of the favourites? You co-own this Wildside Boutique, so as far as men dressing as women or wanting to take that vacation from real life, the tramp, the whore aren’t those the biggest costumes that you would sell?”

Roxy: “Not really. We do have fetishist outfits. Some of them just want to look, say, like a librarian. They just want to melt into the background.”

Shelly: “Have some fantasy in their lives.”

Roxy: “Some people want to be the French Maid. Some people want to put on the wedding dress.”

Shelly: “So why are you as man told that it is wrong to have an imagination? It’s wrong to want more, to become somebody else for a while?”

Roxy: “This is something that I don’t accept. I believe that the whole masculine identity is artificially contrived. I was born and everything about me was born from inside a woman. I was nurtured by a woman. I came on to the world and then all of a sudden large people who are masculine take over and tell me that I can no longer be anything related to a woman anymore. Think of the problems people have with their (female) mates because they don’t want to live like them anymore. I mean they’re told they can’t live like a woman. They can’t be like a woman. So how on earth can anybody live with a woman.?”

Shelly: “Well in your first marriage, right, you are living with somebody, you are living with Paddy now, correct?”

Roxy: “Yes.”

Shelly: “But in your first marriage you chose to come and say to your wife at the time you like to dress up in panty hose, the bra, whatever.....”

Roxy: “You name it.”

Shelly: “What was her response?”

Roxy: “She hated it. She despised it. I wasn’t like Daddy. She was afraid that because I was crossdressing that eventually down the road that I would become homosexual or transsexual.”

Shelly: “Like this would be a disease.....”

Roxy: “How could I be represented to my peer group if we decided to have children? Our kids would surely suffer ridicule at best for having a father who crossdressed.”

Shelly: “Who is more offended by the fact you are a man and dress like a woman. Men or women?”

Roxy: “We were talking about this earlier and I think I reconsider. I think men are more offended because they are afraid that if they express themselves as a woman that they will be judged as being gay.”

Shelly: “A wimp, a limp wristed faggot.....”

Roxy: “Or sissified or whatever. See I never had that aura about me when I was growing up. It seemed that my masculine gender fit with my male body. I was never pigeonholed to be a mama’s boy, effeminate or even potentially homosexual.”

Shelly: “And the men who come to Take A Walk On The Wildside to become a girl for a while feel guilty. They have to do it in fear. Please, if Madonna can do it, what’s wrong with it? As women we are allowed to do that. I can dress up in whatever I want - my suit with the pin stripes, the bow tie, and the white shirt. I can be assertive, authoritative. I’m goin’ places. Where you do it as a man and many people feel it’s completely inappropriate.”

Roxy: “It depends on what kind of man does it. (Shelly laughs). If I go out there and ask for it on the street, I’m asking for trouble. But if I walk into a room beautifully dressed as a crossdressed man , people have a chance to take me in stride. I’m almost seven feet tall in heels with my hair in an up-do.....”

Shelly: “You’re an Amazon !”

Roxy: “Hopefully people will see beyond the jewels and the gown to the craftwork that put me together.”

Shelly: “Do some people not want to take you for face value.? In other words, do you have to confirm that you are not a woman for some people? There’s something going on there.”

Roxy: “I may have a very busy brain but I have never been openly challenged by somebody who wanted to ridicule me because I’m just too dangerous. I have that look in my eye that I’m a crossdressed man. Like watch out if I have to become Tom and deal with you.”

Shelly: “People also laugh though. They go, ‘He thinks he’s passing as a female. Give me a break!’ Now you are able to do that. I have met others that cannot.”

Roxy: “I don’t think I pass as a female at all. I’m just too large. I’m 6’1”and easily 225 pounds. Who are we kidding?”

Shelly: “Let’s go to you the listener. Who are we kidding? The question is simply this. Men who dress as women, whether it’s for a turn-on for themselves or anybody else, are we ready to accept it? Or is it still completely immoral and inappropriate? Let’s be happy with what God gave you. You know what I’m saying here? We quickly want to go to Margaret. Margaret you are on CFFF 1111. Margaret, hi. What do you say?

Marg: “I am the mother of a gay son and I am very proud of him.”

Shelly: “Good for you.”

Marg: (Very upset, crying) “And I think it’s about time that the media and the rest.....give them a break!”

Shelly: Marg, you are the mother of a gay son. Does your son dress in women’s clothing?”

Marg: “No he doesn’t.”

Shelly: “Would you expect him to?” (Marg heard ‘accept’.)

Marg: “Yes I would accept him. There is nothing that they can do about it.”

Shelly: “Now why do you believe that because Tom has.....”

Marg: “Because it’s something that’s biological. It isn’t something that they want to be. It’s something in their genes when they were born. It’s nothing that we did wrong as a mother or a father. When we planted the seed something went wrong and there’s nothing.... It was God’s choice. And he’s very special.”

Shelly: “And you wouldn’t want to change him for the world?”

Marg: “No. He’s God’s gift to me.”

Shelly: “Margaret, it sounds like it has been really difficult for you to get to that point. Like there would be a lot of other people who would not agree with you.”

Marg: “I’ve only known it for a year. He only came out of the closet a year ago. And it was hard for my husband and I. He is married. He is married to a same sex partner.”

Shelly: “Margaret, how did your husband deal with that?”

Marg: “He had a harder time than I did but we now both accept this. And we went through a period of time when we thought we had done something wrong.”

Shelly: “Yah.....that’s wonderful and I want to thank you for that call. I really appreciate it and it is eye opening for everybody.”

Roxy: “Some of the most incredible, extraordinary people I met are gay and lesbian. And I think they have an easier time now in the world being accepted than a person like myself who is both genders.”

Shelly: “Why should we accept you? In your case you said that it was learned. You learned to dress as a female. You learned to want to be female.”

Roxy: “Ah but you see there is the key ingredient where I would disagree with the pundits. I think there is instinct in there as well. I was born into a situation I cannot help either. But it is going to be more difficult for me to be accepted than for a gay or a lesbian person. Now if a gay or a lesbian person crossdresses then sometimes they are an embarrassment to the gay and lesbian community.”

Shelly: “Why?”

Roxy: “Because they are officious and they bring on the stigma of.....”

Shelly: “Oh that everybody who is gay will therefore ( be a transvestite) be transsexual or want a sex change operation.....”

Roxy: “Or that all gays are just carrying on like drag queen’s all the time. They (the queen’s) are show business people. I don’t want to put them down. So many of my friends are drag queen’s as well.”

Shelly: “Now what’s the difference? This is an education in a sense.”

Roxy: “A drag queen is a transvestite and he dresses as a woman for show business such as I do in a way in a closetted (cloistered, studio) way. I’m a heterosexual and they are gay. But also a drag queen enjoys attracting men to him when he dresses as a female.”

Shelly: “Is that where the element of ego comes in? Like, oh my God, I was so attracted to you! Then I found out you were a male! If I was a true heterosexual I would have know that you were faking it!”

Roxy: “When you say things like ego-involved I can’t quite track you until I handle the subject that ego is so much part of crossdressing and being a transvestite. A drag queen is totally involved with image and self. A crossdresser, a transvestite is as well. It’s narcissism. The person you see in that mirror and the person you’re falling in love with if you are a crosssdresser is yourself.”

Shelly: “Ah, you said it. Let’s go to Brian. Brian you are on CFFF 1111.”

Brian: “Hi. Your guest today I’m sorry I didn’t catch his name.”

Shelly: “It’s Tom when he’s male. He is biologically male but it’s Roxy when he’s dressing female.”

Brian: “What would he liked to be called this evening?”

Roxy: “Roxy tonight.”

Brian: “OK Roxy have you gone to a psychiatrist or recieved mental therapy in the last five or six years?”

Roxy: “No I haven’t.”

Brian: “Why haven’t you tried to do that? Obviously your chromasomes, your genes have made you male. I agree that you have learned through growing up you wanted to be a female. I don’t think it’s instinct. Although you can’t prove it one way or another, you may need some help. And you know that may certainly give you a better direction.”

Roxy: “OK. And I wouldn’t disagree with you. I just want to carry out your point a little further. A lot of crossdressers, transvestites learn this in early life. And a lot of people later in life, because of traumatic emotional situations they just fall apart and let themselves out, like out of the closet. I’m saying that I have had both situations. When my first marriage broke up, when my parents died, there was a lot of mental duress. There was a lot of unhappiness. What I say is that I am agreeing with you. I’m working with it but I don’t think I need help.”

Brian: “You were living a “normal” male life when you were earlier in your years, is that what you were saying, and then something traumatic happened and you thought it was still within you and that this traumatic event actually brought it out?”

Roxy: “Yes, I regressed back to the simplier years when I was just, say, a little girl living with a lot of woman.”

Brian: “Do you agree that you were born, the first hours of your life, you agree you were male?”

Roxy: “Oh, heavens I can’t get into that. I mean like people have traced what goes on in the womb second by second.”

Shelly: “Well you know you were male and I mean this is obvious but I think what we’er saying is or maybe what you think here, Brian, do you (Roxy) admit that indeed you may be metally ill? Are you mentally ill?”

Roxy: “I don’t think I’m mentally ill because I’m coping with what I consider to be a problem. I recognize the problem. So.....”

Brian: “I don’t think I would use the words mentally ill. I would say probably, like, something a little less vicious than mentally ill but....”

Roxy: “That’s good enough.” (Meaning that it is at least a focal point to initiate conversation.)

Shelly: “I thank you, I thank you a lot for the call. I’m not trying to be vicious but many people feel that, and we were hearing this while there were prostitutes on the street being killed. Why did they make that choice? Above all the choices they could have made, why to dress (as a woman), why to pretend? Why? If you are going to pretend to be something else, if you are going to play with fire, sometimes you are going to get burned. It’s that kind of feeling. This is Sex, Lies and Audiotape. I’m Shelly Stern. Tom, a.k.a. Roxy really is Roxy tonight because although Tom is male when Tom dresses up he refers to himself as Roxy. Is this completely accepted in society? Is society ready to accept men who dress as women? Or do you still feel it’s wrong, immoral, unnatural somehow? Let’s talk to Earl. Earl you are on CFFF 1111. Hi.”

Earl: “Good evening Shelly.”

Shelley: “So where are we at with this now?”

Earl: “I was going to suggest that when I go to the beach I wear swim trunks, flippers and a diving mask. But if I walked into CFFF offices dressed like that your people would get hysterical and I’d end up in the nut house.”

Shelly: (Laughing) “This says a lot for the staff here, thanks Earl.”

Earl: “Well you know if a guy walks into your office dressed up in flippers and a diving mask in the middle of a business day, we all have an obligation to society to represent what we are and what our intentions are reasonably accurately.”

Shelly: “So in other words, if you are a man and you are dressed as a woman you are setting yourself up to be discriminated against, to be misunderstood. To blow opportunities. You are victimizing yourself.”

Earl: “Absolutely. If this guy wants to go to a party of friends who know him and who approve dressing a certain way within the confines of the residence wherever they are its no businees of mine.”

Shelly: “And the other point you raise there Earl, is if you’re a guy and you want to dress as a woman go ahead and do that but not in my neighborhood, not in my place of business. Correct?”

Earl: “Well, I’m looking at this from a mechanical point of view. I have all sorts of psychological problems myself which is why I’m calling you tonight.”

Shelly: (Laughing)” Great! How can I help?”

Earl: “But, I try to keep them under control during the business day and when I am in public. I go around in a collar and tie a lot of my life and I hate a collar and tie. But I do it to represent what I am and what I aspire to and to reassure people that when they see me and when they deal with me that I am going to behave in a predictable manner.”

Shelly: “But isn’t that in a sense an impersonation in itself? I mean what is the difference between Tom’s dressing up as a woman and your pretending that you feel fine at work?”

Earl: “The difference is that because I do it regularly I can pull it off and people....ah....I behave in a predictable manner which is represented by my appearance. If you were walking down the street and you saw a polar bear and this happens fairly frequently in Fort Churchill for example, people take one look at the polar bear and run screaming for cover because these animals are dangerous. So.....”

Shelly: “Now, are you saying this about Roxy? This animal is dangerous ‘cause you never know.....”

Earl: “Absolutely.”

Shelly: “Really. Wait a minute. Roxy, are you dangerous?”

Roxy: “No. I’m not dangerous.”

Earl: “Ah, but, but you don’t know what reaction you are going to provoke in me. You may know that you are harmless but you don’t know how I am going to react to that. Well unfortunately we have had evidence of how some people do (react).”

Shelly: “Thank you very much for your call. Go ahead Tom.”

Roxy: “Indeed. You see, here is another thing about transvestites or people who call themselves crosssdressers. They form clubs but the clubs are (no different than) the closets they have been in all their lives. So they go to a restaurant and they have a private room. So they go from one closet to the other closet. And they are quite wise to do that because the magic number is that 80% of the people out there aren’t ever going to understand.....”

Shelly: “.....what you do, why you need to dress as a woman.”

Roxy: “That’s correct. They may never accept that ever.”

Shelly: “Well if that’s the case then you understand why something could be provoked in somebody else? I mean on the other hand is it fair to say that if you dress up as a female and you are really male, are you in charge of whether somebody wants to kill you because you are doing that? Do you know what I mean? Are you responsible for that? If 80% of the world doesn’t understand what you are doing and you’re going out and you are doing something they don’t understand, is it.....”

Roxy: “Sometimes it’s the thrill. It’s the excitment. It’s that danger that is there that provokes a lot of people to do that.”

Shelly: “Is that part of the thrill, though, to be in your face to provoke somebody to have a reaction that, ‘my God you’re a man, but you’re really in that blond wig?’”

Roxy: “Sometimes it’s the excitement of actually getting away with it, of actually passing, of actually walking through the Eaton’s Centre. If I walked through the Eaton’s Centre there will be a camera crew behind me because I am a corporate model for Wildside. And I am a show business person and I tend to dress flashier and racier that the average crossdresser. I’m not in the closet. I am making a statement for gender equality.”

Shelly: “But on the other hand you’re not in the closet, but you also wouldn’t walk up here tonight ‘cause you realize it’s dangerous to be out of the closet.”

Roxy: “It’s always best to take cabs.”

Shelly: “But at the same time.....”

Roxy: “But I have my female companion with me who worries more about me more than I realize myself. She guards me.”

Shelly: “In a sense being who you are, being a man dressed as a woman, you may be insighting hatred just because you’re being how you truly feel.”

Roxy: “I am different and difference breeds contempt.”

Shelly: “Men who dress as women, are we ready to accept guys who do this? Guys you do it. You know what your doing. Or is it still immoral, dificult for you? Men who dress as women, do they ask in a sense to be discriminated against? Whatever they get, they’ve provoked it somehow.

Roxy: “It could be....”

Shelly: “Tom, actually no it’s not Tom. See, Tom is lucky. He gets to play all different kinds of roles all the time. If you are bored with your life my recommendation is learn to crossdress. This will be a fun thing. Tom, a.k.a. Roxy, people can’t see you. Tell people how you are dressed tonight.”

Roxy: “I’m in basically a business outfit with a short blonde wig and I don’t have my high heels on, just flats.”

Shelly: “Nice black dress.”

Roxy; “It’s very conservative. This isn’t really the Roxy I would like to be because I like to be more sassy and outgoing.”

Shelly: “Gold jewellery, got the bracelet on.”

Roxy: “Yes, we make them there at Wildside. I’d like to say something about having problems with your relationship with you man, if you are a woman.”

Shelly: “Can I bring on your woman, hang on ‘your woman,’ as my knuckles drag in the mud here, let me just say this: ‘Hey Paddy, How are you doin’?’”

Paddy: “Hi, there.”

Shelly: “We’re talking about the fact that you live together, and Roxy works for you at Take A Walk On The Wildside.”

Roxy: “Well we have matching nighties. We paint eachother’s toenails. I shave my body . I am basically living like a woman and I am letting Roxy come out. That is how I am going to formulate my Ph.D. thesis as to finding out just exactly what happens if I let everything all hang out. So, go get’em dear.”

Shelly: “Paddy, did you know when you started living with Tom that he liked to dress up in women’s clothing?”

Paddy: “I sure did.”

Shelly: “Was that a turn-on?”

Paddy: “Yes it was. That was the first thing that appealed to me.”

Shelly: “So what does that mean.”

Paddy: “Something’s wrong with me, Shelly!”

Shelly: (Both Paddy and Shelly are laughing hysterically.) “Oh it’s a freak show! OK! I clued myself in that!”

Paddy: “But in a way it’s not because it might be a freak show but I mean we are here and we are able to help other couples that have problems.”

Shelly: “Can I get really personal? When you make love, does Tom dress as a woman?”

Paddy: “Yes.”

Shelly: “Do you dress as a woman or as a man?”

Paddy: “Well, I usually don’t wear anything.”

Shelly: “That makes sense. All right, thanks for throwing that one at me. So now a lot of people would have a hard time with that. I read some stories about women that their guys get turned on when the guy dresses up in lingerie as a woman but it is hard for the woman to make love.”

Paddy: “The key is right there. If the guy is getting turned on, isn’t that what the woman wants?

Shelly: “Well what about what you want? I mean a lot of women would have a hard time kissing their man in blue eyeshadow and lipstick.”

Paddy: “No we don’t do that. We don’t go to bed with makeup on.”

Shelly: “Well what do you do?”

Paddy: “Well there may be some erotic lingerie, but more men do that than want to admit it Besides a couple of pieces of lingerie doesn’t make it a crossdresser.

Shelly: “Hang on a minute here Pat. I’m going to go to a few of your calls and just jump in when you want. Joanne, you are on CFFF 1111. Joanne.....”

Joanne: “Hi. I was just wondering when he started, like how did Roxy get started, like how did he know that he actually liked dressing up as a woman?

Roxy: “Oh, I just had a fascination for women’s one piece bathing suits all my life and any eclectic articles of clothing like high heels, dresses, skirts. Even as a child I always wanted to be one of the girl Mouseketeers on the Micky Mouse Club. In private, I always considered myself to be a girl. I found sloppy white bobby sox and white canvass shoes to be erotic. I always wanted to wear my hair long and tie it up in a pony tail. Now I have my own hair long and tie up in a pony tail. There’s nothing more personal than being in drag and wearing your own styled hair.”

Shelly: “Well, I told you! It’s a freak show, the Mickey Mouse club, men wearing their own hair in drag!”

Roxy: “There’s more to it. I know why women pierce their ears, mine are pierced, because its erotic and.....”

Paddy: “Wives have sometimes sent their husbands to me when they (the wives) have wanted me to break them (the husbands) of their crossdressing tendencies. I have dressed them as French Maids, put them in heels too high to walk in and taken them out in public to humiliate them so that they would never think about ever doing drag again.”

Shelly: “Would that work with you, Roxy? Could you be humilated to the point of never dressing as a woman again?”

Roxy: “No way. I love the attention. I have tasted the forbidden fruit and been coached and coordinated and encouraged by my loving Paddy ‘till there is no turning back for me. I have come to thoroughly enjoy my gender duality and being a transvestite. There are only a few times that I don’t like crossdressing.

Shelly: “Oh, really. Explain.”

Roxy: “Sometimes, when Paddy and I consider going out and I want to be Roxy, I get concerned not for me or what people might think of me, but how other people’s reactions will make Paddy feel.....”

Paddy: “I don’t want people to make fun of my baby. We took Virginia Prince to the CN Tower which is very straight and the reactions of people behind Roxy’s back were from shock to ridicule. None of these people would do this to his face. But I could see it. Other wives of crossdressers can see this when they are out with their husbands in public crossdressed, and I know it makes them and me feel uncomfortable.”

Shelly: “The answer?”

Paddy: “We go out to safe places, places in the gay ghetto, places and bars where they have drag shows....”

Roxy: “Another important aspect with Paddy’s feelings is that I cannot always be the ‘pretty one’ when we go out. Sometimes its Paddy’s turn to dress up and strut her stuff while hanging on to the arm of her biological man.”

Shelly: “That’s all the time we have this hour on Sex, Lies and Audiotape here on CFFF 1111. I thank our callers and a special thanks to Paddy and Roxy for a truly eye-opening presentation. Especially thank you, Roxy, for your absolute candor and openness.

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